I can't imagine it being repaired either, but I'm not sure who it would have been more damaging to. I think Spike probably would have let himself burn up in the sun if he did that, you know?

I remember in commentary one time Joss mentioned something about a couple named Luke and Lara, I think, where the guy raped her but she got back together with him immedietly, and that he didn't want that to happen with Spuffy. That he wanted the two to come to a place of trust again, slowly, so that he could get them into a relationship that was truly beautiful in a way that was respectful of what had happened in the past.

I completely agree with Nika, I couldn't say it better. I think that while Buffy would have been damaged, Spike would have ended himself.

Luke and Laura were a couple on General Hospital in 80's. My mom used to watch that show. I guess it was a big deal back then.

I think the fact that the attempted rape happened is what led to the lack of closure that Spuffy fans feel. While it did lead them to a place that was beautiful and respectful, it kind of had Joss walking on egg shells as to not turn them into Luke and Laura. I know that he had the fade to black in Chosen so that the viewers could decide for themselves what went on, but we didn't even get one last kiss! Even Bangel fans got that.

to be fair though, she touched hands with him and set them on fire, i'm not sure setting buffy's face on fire would have been good lol and i quite like the fact that they spent their last moments just looking at each other

hmmm yeah your probably both right about spike doing something, it's not like he hasn't tried before

But they could have had a kiss earlier in the episode, just to throw us a bone!

Is that where they're from, I was wondering.

Anyway, yeah, but I think Joss thought the 'I Love you' was the Spuffy bone.

I remember I read a quote that JM recently said in a Q&A about what he thinks happened between Buffy and Spike in the moment that faded to black and he jokingly said that he thinks Buffy tried to have sex with Spike, but he turned her down.

And yeah, I wonder if she has any scars from the fire burning at her hand?

well she ran over buildings with a stab wound (so realistic) so i don't think so,
but we could demand spuffy scars like buffy has the 'angry puppy' scar on her neck
find it funny that she says puppy and spike calls him a fluffy puppy lol

OK, if "I love you" was the Spuffy bone, Joss then went and chewed it all up with the "No you don't, but thanks for sayin' it". Grrr!

i don't think spuffy needed a bone, bangel did as obviously it had been spuffy for a few years

I really really wanted a bone. Just because so much had happened at the end of season 6/beginning of 7. For most of season 7, you didn't really know where they stood.

I did to. I would have loved if she had stayed with him, or if she had kissed him right after he said no you don't, but *sigh* it didn't happen.

You know, I was rereading a book, and the couple in there, the guy raped the girl he was in love with and she instantly forgave him for it.

Buffy tends to forgive those she cares about for offenses against her. She forgave Willow for trying to kill them all. She forgave Xander for trying to rape her in the pack. She forgave Angelus for stalking her and tormenting her for months, along with almost sending the world to hell. With Spike, it didn't even seem like she dwelled on it much, a few hours later she was bringing Dawn to his Crypt to watch over.

yeah but he couldn't physically harm dawn and she would have to tell dawn or come up with a lame excuse

I think what you're saying about the last episode is interesting. I'm a Bangel shipper, and I understand the frustration about Buffy & Spike not having a last kiss etc, because I would have been really disappointed had Bangel not had one. But it's different. I think the point of the Buffy/Spike interaction in season 7 is that it wasn't physical in that way, because that was what was needed in order to bring them to a place of trust and respect. Kind of like the lack of physical intimacy enriched their emotional intimacy, i.e. when they curl up on the bed together to sleep. I can't imagine that happening in season 6, and I think that's important. Buffy trusts him now, and the lack of sexual intimacy etc strengthens that I think and makes it more touching and sweet. Also, Spuffy fans can decide that after that fade to black in the last episode, they slept together, and that was their closure. I think that ambiguity was very diplomatic of Joss, and allowed everyone to be kept happy, because Spuffy fans could have it their way and Bangel fans could have it theirs. I don't know if any of that makes sense!

I was really horrified by the attempted rape, and surprised by Buffy's swift forgiveness, but to be fair to Spike he was an entirely different person when he had a soul and, while the other characters were understandably less accepting of him due to their protectiveness towards Buffy, she herself understands, possibly because of her experiences with Angel/Angelus, that the soulless demon is vastly different to the ensouled vampire, and that accordingly neither ensouled-Spike nor Angel can be held accountable for their actions when without a soul. This is something that none of the other characters ever really grasped, with either Angel or Spike, which led them often to criticise Buffy for her forgiveness, but personally in both cases I think it shows her compassion and deep understanding of demons/vampires etc. Though I think at the time, when I first watched it, I also was shocked and didn't think she should forgive him so easily, but then I was angry with the others for failing to accept/forgive Angel in season 3, which isn't consistent at all! I think the reason for this is that the audience was all lulled into the idea of Spike not being capable of such things due to the chip - hence Joss turning it all upside down and reminding us all that Spike as still a soulless demon.

hi april showers -

nice to read your posts - and this theme of Soul - Non-Soul has been discussed ad nauseum but I still like to see what the viewers think. My opinion on the subject is that Angel and Spike are not taken as fundamentally different or rather, not judged differently in the "souled" "non-souled" - People, are the sum of their experiences and memories; how they have lived their lives.

If Spike and Angel felt great remorse and guilt from their lives as vampires - it indicates to me that they are still the same entities with or sans soul. That remorse and guilt and suffering from their vampire existence is predicated on their memories and knowledge of what they have done. I truly believe that their lives are their past and present and that they are not fundamentally different. Joss Whedon makes it difficult to see Angel/Angelus as the same entity with the dramatic plot device shift between Angel and Angelus - with Spike we did not see this extreme change, so it is easier to keep the characters connected. My question was always - if they are not the same, why do they care or feel remorse, guilt seek redemption, etc. etc.?

on the subject of Spuffy - the Spuffy camp was given a huge Spuffy Moment with the intertwined hands and fire - the mythic symbolism of that moment is one of a coming together and complete joining and acceptance and purification. It was the symbol of Buffy-Spike joined and transformed; cleansed of all their earthly troubles and joined in a new spiritual state. As far as the "no you don't" Spike lines - I like to see it as a resolution from CWDP and Cassie's "she'll tell you" - Cassie, I thought played the role of another seer, Cassandra, which foreshadows Spike's reactions.

Anyway - enjoyed reading your ideas -

After the attempted rape, Spike first asked himself why he had tried to rape her. Then he asked himself why he even cared, being a vampire. He was supposed to take what he wanted!
I believe that if he had succeeded things would have been very different between them. That would make him the stronger part and a real villain. Maybe he would go all the way back to the dark side...