um... well as a bangel fan i guess im bias but i always thought it was clear buffy was totally in love with angel and they just coudnt be together, while spike was more of she has an itch to scratch and after the whole dead-alive thing spike could give her an understanding that the scooby gang couldnt.
bangel had a strong love connection that could often make them selfess or selfish, and though apart they lived their lives whenever brought back together the same connection and love was always displayed, they were always something more than friends or 'workmates' even if it was just for one episode with one line spoken. their connection was so strong they could simply feel each other even if they couldn't see each other. in my mind bangel were always the ultimate soulmates to beat out any other fictional characters in existance.

spike, love him, just didnt do anything for me with spuffy, actually if anything i think spuffy ruins his character. and with the whole he loved her even without a soul, isn't that impossible? the very fact he didn't have a soul should make his pledge of love invalid, infatuated perhaps. when willow met her vampire self she makes comments about thinking her vamp self is gay and buffy tells her it means nothing and angel turns around and says how vampires keep traits or whatever it was of their human self (willow later starts getting it on with girls), i always saw spuffy in relation to that, as a mortal william 'spike' was a complete momma's boy, when he became a vampire that devotion was turned towards drusilla, with drusilla gone he floated around until he latched onto buffy, my logic is he needs a female rolemodel to be a lapdog for.

buffy and angel loved each other.
buffy and spike used each other.

Agree on all points, especially how spuffy ruined spike, I liked him before that

I completely agree Broody, Spike was way better as an evil vampire with drusilla than a pathetic one with Buffy, I liked him evil not as Spuffy, it did ruin his character

i don't agree. spike was a much better fit for buffy whether she wanted to admit it or not. i guess being a spuffy im kind of biased too but i did love bangel at first. in fact, i refused to like spike at all but its undeniable, spike and buffy communicated more, there were more jokes, it was more entertaining. plus spike was hilarious. even wen he went all soft and spuffy he was soo funny. angel only got sort of funny on his own show. he was also very fairly boring. also spuffy has a catchier ring to it

1. Spike offered to leave but she said no. He also knew that she needed him to help fight evil.

2. Angel does not only experience true happiness with Buffy. In season four of 'Angel' he has a perfect day fantasy so he can lose his soul, his perfect day fantasy does not involve buffy at all but instead what turns him bad is sex with cordelia.

3. Buffy says she doesn't know who she will be with when shes cookies, thats all part of the baking. All she says is that sometimes she thinks about being with Angel. But then again she also tells him to leave and that spike is in her heart

4. We don't know who buffy would choose if they both turned human. Both sides of the argument believe that theirs would be chosen.

5. Buffy loves them both, Andrew says so and so does buffy. I think it's wrong to completely dismiss the fact that buffy loved them both.

6. When you say that "Angel and Buffy had a special relationship that Spike and Buffy never had." Is purely your opinion. Many spuffy fans believe that spike and buffy have a special relationship that bangel never had.

7. SMG says herself that buffy and spike understood eachother on a level above the others

8. Spike is a hottie, a sweetheart and in the end buffy was the one for him.

In response to your question "What's so great about Spike?" there are so many reasons why Spike is better than Angel. I suppose I can list a few.
First I will briefly mention Spike's popularity. After a series of favorite character poles, he was almost always found to be at the very top. Also, here (rebuildsunnydale.com/?tag=sfx-top-vampire­) is a link to the SFX magazine where Spike makes #1 by an international vote. Angel, although he had his own show for 5 seasons, made #3. Spike badly beat Edward Cullen, who landed #14, and I think everyone knows how popular he is. Why Spike is so popular and better than Angel can be summed up in the following reasons:
1. Spike actually seeks out his soul, fights for it, and suffers the pain and guilt it brings him when he wins it. He is strong enough to pull himself together and fight for Buffy and for the world in season 7. In Buffy's words, "You faced the monster inside of you and you fought back. You risked everything to be a better man."
2. Joss Whedon likes Spike better than Angel and I dare anyone to contradict Joss. He thinks that the character of Spike is far more interesting and complex than Angel's character ever was. Angel's character got extremely dull after a while. He was so predictable, you could always tell what he was going to do or say. Spike claimed that Angel was "as dull as a table lamp" and I agree. After several episodes, Angel's constant moping and brooding started to get on my nerves. Spike is quick and witty and funny as hell. He was a huge part of Buffy as well as a villian and comic relief.
3. Spike never really moves on from Buffy. He always loves her and isn't ever with anyone else. Soon after Angel gets his own show, however, in his fantasy he sleeps with Cordy and as AnaHallam said, experiences true happiness with her. If Angel loved Buffy like Spike does then he would never have even considered doing anything with Cordy.
4. Spike sacrifices everything for the woman he loves. He almost kills Dru for her, comforts her, allows himself to be used for her, gets a soul for her, reforms for her, fights for her, and dies for her. Please remember what Angel's like without a soul and what Spike's like without a soul and compare them. Angelus didn't give a damn about Buffy in soulless form, yet Spike cared deeply for Buffy, was tortured for her (Intervention), and loved her without a soul at all. I honestly try to think of something Angel did for Buffy, but all that draws up is a blank. He hurts her as Angelus and leaves her as Angel. Some Bangel fans think he "sacrificed himself" at the end of season 2, but Buffy was the one who made the sacrifice. Angel didn't know what hit him.
5. I suppose my last reason can be editorial, many others as well as I find Spike the hotter of the two vampires. He has blue eyes and cheekbones to die for and stays in shape through-out Buffy and Angel, while Angel gains a good amount of weight as time goes by.
Die-hard Angel fans can try and prove me wrong, I really don't mind. I've said all I wanted to say.

Love is love, there's no way you can measure it by deeds or declarations. But there are different types of love (platonic, romance, family, etc). That's what annoys me most about this ongoing debate - and will most likely always go on because JW can't pick one or the other without suffering a nuclear fallout.

I am in favor of Spike and not because he symbolizes the classic underdog but I like his personality better. As for their relationship? I think Marti Noxon said it best and even you Angel fans out there have to give it some merit:

"This was the beginning of the most divisive story we've ever had, which was Buffy and Spike boning. Really, I've never seen such a strong reaction on both sides. People either love it or hate it. To this day, people either truly believe that Spike is completely redeemed and should be treated a lot better, or they truly believe that Buffy is a fool for trusting someone who's been evil and how can she be so unheroic as to allow herself to be caught up in this really sordid romance? So you get the total Buffy/Spike shippers or you get the attitude, "I just don't respect Buffy any more." It's fascinating to see. The thing I keep saying is that it's not black and white. I'd love it to be, but it's not. To me, this is much more real. If these two crazy kids can make it work, it will be a lot more interesting than a kind of perfect romance with obstacles thrown in. To me, this is real life; this is people making their own problems. If they can get it together, that would be amazing. But it was never going to be easy. That's why Spike did something radical at the end of the year. Joss came up with the idea of the house coming down around them while they made love. It was perfect, because we needed something catastrophic to go along with this huge dangerous union. -- Marti Noxon"

JW, SMG, JM, DF, DG, RK, DP, and many of the shows cast, crew, and writers have interesting views on their relationship, which I agree is RADICALLY different from Buffy's relationship with Angel, but I tend to think that Marti Noxon's was the closest.

But if you really want to play the whose love is greater game... Spike went to Africa to get a soul. What is stopping Angel from doing the same thing to get his soul anchored - other than his belief for Buffy to have a "normal life" which we all know is simply not in the cards for her?

I hate character bashing, anyone that does I never take seriously, every character on Buffy has had some merit to their persona and motives.

Except for Parker. Only reason I'm happy that Buffy did that fling was because the actor (though he is a nice guy) kept lighting up before his makeout scenes with SMG who apparently didn't appreciate it much. That gaves the heads up to JM who made sure to brush since the famous "Something Blue" episode was only six episodes away. But I digress so I'm going to shutup now and wish whoever she ends up with the best of luck because God knows the girl needs it.

I was really happy to see that every response here was laced with merit and logic. That's something new!lol

Anyways, I've never been a Spuffy fan (never could be as I was so die-hard Bangel--in my junior high bliss--that I discontinued watching the series on Angel's departure). In light of that I try to stay out of debates between the two. So, all I can say is that I personally always preferred Angel. I always thought that they epitomized the ultimate "star crossed lovers" or "soulmates". I completely respect the Spike/Spuffy fans (more so after reading this, you all brought up alot of great points) but Angel was the more attractive option for me. I wasn't a fan of the bleach blonde look. But, clearly Buffy was.lol

I always thought that the need for Spike's character transformation and eventual leading man status came from the development of the Angel series. Purely conjecture of course. What I loved the most about Buffy and Angel was their connection. I think Broody nailed that one on the head for Bangel fans. We thrive on the premise that(in our minds) there will never find another love like that--tragic as it may be. Given the crossover between the two series I'll hold that notion to the end.

Also, in the past I had read some of Joss's comments regarding this love triangle, and I got the impression that he believed that Buffy and Angel would ultimately reunite. Obviously you can't quote me on that...I've tried to find the quote but CAN NOT! But, it was something along the lines of Buffy and Angel sharing a connection that transcended both series.

Regardless, because of the way that JW left things, I don't think we'll ever really know. I think that was the point. Ultimately I'm happy with the turnout. And, I think it's great that fans are so genuinely passionate and reasonable with their support.

Yes, in season 6 of Buffy, her relationship with Spike was only physical. But because of that, people try to dismiss all the love and care that they showed each other after that.

The difference between her relationships with Spike and Angel was that Spike actually had to work for her. She liked Angel from the start, he never had to try to win her. But Spike loved her through her hatred. She despised him, but he still did everything in his power to win her. He never gave up on her. He loved her, whether or not she loved him back. He took criticism from all her friends, kept after her, protected her, and when he felt that their relationship wasn't real (Once More, With Feeling)he even told her to leave and "Let him rest in peace". He was out of his mind for her, and decided if he couldn't have a real relationship with her, he didn't want her around him. It was too painful. That's what's so great about him. He wasn't just with her for sex, he loved her, despite what everyone around them thought. He fought for his soul, fought to be with her, and even if she could never admit real love for him, he told her "I know you'll never love me. I know I'm a monster, but you treat me like a man." And at the end of season 7, when they take each others hands, they catch fire. It was magical. Nothing magical ever happened with Angel.

Sorry if I come across as angry. I don't mean to...

I really believe it is wrong to say that Angel never did anything for Buffy. He has helped her countless times, and has always placed her needs before his own.
Angel: I saw you before you became the Slayer.
Buffy: What?
Angel: I watched you, and I saw you called. It was a bright afternoon out in front of your school. You walked down the steps... and...and I loved you.
Buffy: Why?
Angel: 'Cause I could see your heart. You held it before you for everyone to see. And I worried that it would be bruised or torn. And more than anything in my life I wanted to keep it safe... to warm it with my own.
He is a very caring being. Even sacrifices his own son (in season 4) because he knew that Connor were too far gone and would never find peace. Angel arranged for him to have new memories and a whole new family even thou Connor would never remember him. That kind of sacrifice is also shown in Angel season 1 "I Will Remember You” were He due to some mystic demon blood turns human and is together a whole day in bed with Buffy. But Angels “Sidekick” Doyle has a vision about darkness and dead. Angel seeks out the Oracles and learns that if he remains human, Buffy will face the minions of darkness alone and die much sooner. Stricken, Angel asks The Oracles to take back his life. At first, The Oracles refuse to interfere in "a matter of love" between "lower beings." Angel argues that there are larger issues at stake, that if he remains human, the "other side" will have certainly succeeded in removing one champion from the cause of The Powers That Be, as well as hastening the demise of another. The Oracles decide that Angel's willingness to sacrifice the single shred of happiness and love he has ever known qualifies him as a "higher being," but that his request to give back his life can only be granted if the entire day is erased. Angel never wavers in his determination to protect the Slayer, even when he learns that, in order to prevent circumstances from repeating exactly, he alone will remember all they have shared.
I mean come on His love for Buffy is so strong that even after he is sent to a hell-dimension for 100 years; his first sane action is to hug Buffy. He completely forgives her and his love for her is what makes him regain his senses. But like Buffy, Angel in his own series grew to what I call the champion level. He's very similar to Buffy: He does what needs to be done. Even among friends he is extremely lonely,
It is mentioned that Buffy chose to send Angel away in season 7 but she only did that so Angel would be able to fight if she failed. It is also WRONG that Spike didn’t sleep with anyone but Buffy, look at Harmony and if you read the comics he has soon bedded every demon and human in LA :P . Spikes love for Buffy is powerful but he is not the better man. He is way too selfish and I know he did a lot for Buffy and let her use him etc but he did seem to enjoy the ride. The only really wonderful he did (aside from scarify himself) was After Buffy dies in the showdown with Glory, Spike honors her memory by remaining loyal to the Scoobies, fighting at their side and serving the role of baby-sitter/older brother/protector to Dawn, helping Willow and Tara to raise her in Buffy's absence.

*sacrifice. I Don't get the "Spike fought for his soul so he is a better man thing either". I admit he is special to be able to feel love without a soul but Angelus was PURE evil. The most sadistic and cruel vampire ever. Angel and Angelus are NOT the same. I mean Spike went sobbing in a basement for 2 weeks crying over the evil things he did before the soul. Angel spent over a hundred years with the pain a "still" suffers. Spike was obsessed with Buffy which is not the same as love (I do believe he loved her thou) so much he even tried to rape her. I must say I love spike and I loved Buffy and spike together, but Buffy and Angel were soul mates she even says several times that she loved him more than she will ever love anything on this earth.

well Spike is sooooo much better than angel!
Ok I agree B and A were deeply in love and this love continued to exist even when they were apart but maybe that was only because they coldn't be together.

Buffy and Angel started as something so simple, and so classic. And in those few wonderfull years they became something epic. They stared with Angel looking at her when she was nothing more then simple girl, who was just ready to find our her destiny. And he saw her heart, which was hidden. And he fell in love with that. At her heart. He fell in love with something she was too scared to show. From the beginning, most of us knew they will never succeed. They're meant to be together, but never will, because there are things more important then their happiness to them. But I think they don't understand they can't help other people until they help each other. Until they find some form of happiness.
Spuffy started so rough. And so wrong. And with that beginning I could never love them. I was never a Spike hater, I just loved more evil Spike, then love tortured Spike. Spuffy ended for me with their own beginning. Bangel overuled for me in so many ways, just like Woz did over Tillow.

Meh, I dunno, I like both. Maybe not exactly equally, but they're still pretty even for me. Both were just my type of relationship: imperfect but sweet. :)

I don't think that this is the point..
You don't love someone because he's "better"..
I don't like either how Joss changed Angel, and of course Spike had a great growth, and proved to love her..but even if he becames Martin L. King and Angel becames Charles manson, still Buffy would love Angel. That's what happens in real life too, I have never loved someone just because he was cute sang a serenade for me and told me I was the best,and wrote a poem (or took a soul in Africa) I loved someone I didn't chose to love, and it was hard, and he changed, but you can't change your feelings, That's what Buffy said many times..and I think it happens everyday on the earth.
If YOU and the whole whedonverse loves Spike, doesn't mean Buffy loves spike too.
besides I think sarah is a big time bangel.. In the last episode she kissed David with the whole tongue xD BUT JOSS cut that and we see that hello-kiss...mmmmmmmmmh..

I am a Spuffy fan myself and I prefer Spike, but I definitely think that Buffy loved both guys and it is not right to measure love, because she loved them both in a different way. I think she will always love Angel and have strong feelings for him, but that's because first love is always the strongest feeling in your life, it's a whole new world, new emotions and you will always remember your first love as something bright, no matter how much pain you experienced. But it doesn't mean that everything you had after that with someone else was not real. I think Spuffy where definitely real and Joss himself confirmed that Buffy "was IN LOVE" with Spike by the end S7, that Spike mean to Buffy as much as Angel did and that Spuffy relationships where "genuinely beautiful".

As to who is better, Spike or Angel, well, I like both, but still I prefer Spike. First of all, if we look at these vampires when they had no soul we can see that soulles Spike had much more humanity than Angelus did. When Dru turned Spike into a vampire he still loved his mother and wanted to save her from illness. When Darla turned Angel he killed all his family. Spike really loved Dru and cared about her while Angel awfully treated Darla. Soulles Spike was capable of love. He fell in love with Buffy and he was ready to die defending her and her sister. He knew how much Dawn was important to Buffy and he didn't want to leave Buffy in pain, that's why he didn't tell Glory about Dawn, though Glory tortured him. And it was not about impressing Buffy, because if Spike had died during the torture Buffy would have never known about his sacrifice. Bufft then confirmed that what he did for her and Dawn was "real". Also Spike kept his promise to Buffy and took care of Dawn even after Buffy died, though he didn't have to be a babysitter and Buffy was gone, so there was no one to impress. I know that Spike had a chip that wouldn't let him do evil, but it doesn't change his nature. Doing good, taking care of Buffy's family and friends was his own choice. Can you imagine Angelus having that chip, would he still do something good for Buffy? I doubt it. Angelus would find a way to destroy Buffy's life even with a chip in his head. Spike really CHOSE to have a soul, because he didn't want to hurt Buffy again. Spike realized that what he did was bad. Angelus would never choose to have a soul. Spike was the only vampire in history of Universe who went through trials of torture and did it for the one he loved. Angel's soul was forced on him by a curse and for years and years he's been walking on earth playing tortured and didn't even know what to do with that soul. Spike got his soul in S7 and in the end of S7 he saved the world. Spike found a way to bring his soul back for Buffy yet Angel didn't even try to get rid of his curse to be with her and to give her what she deserved. Also Angel with a soul did a lot of bad things on his own show, but that's not the point.

The point is that Angel was not there for Buffy when she needed a support. And I'm not taking those two or three times when he came back to Sunnydale. Angel knew Buffy as a lively school-girl, but when she became a colledge drop-out depressed and desperate for money Angel wasn't there to support her. He wasn't there when Buffy was dead and he didn't help Dawn and her friends, he didn't even visit them, though it is a thing that a loving man should definitely do. And to be fair Buffy also never even called Angel just to ask how he is, though that's what people do when they care about each other. In fact, Buffy didn't know anything about Angel after he left and he didn't know anything about her. Buffy lived in her perfect dream of would could have been, she idolized Angel and their love, but you can't built a mature, grown up relationship on idealization. And that's exactly why I prefer Spuffy: they where much more grown up, they knew everything about each other, they saw each other's bad sides and good sides, they where there for each other in their hardest times.

PS: sorry for my English, it is not good I know, but I was trying.

can I just say everything?

I don't understand the "Angel wasn't there for her after season 5" argument. But that's because the btvs move to UPN, so I understand where you're coming from as a viewer, Maryksand. Angel wasn't on the show after season 5, nor were there any AWESOME crossover eps, because UPN and WB wouldn't legally allow it due to competitive reasons. Or else, I am more than sure that a character would have guest starred on the other show/crossover storylines. If you're gonna use that argument, you should ask yourself, "how come Buffy was never on season 5 of Angel to see Spike after he freaking DIED?" I'm sure she would have. In fact, they wrote the ep "You're Welcomed" originally having Buffy in it. But since SMG couldn't do it, they replaced her with Cordelia. I think if SMG actually did the episode, this whole debate would be a bit different.

Anyway, it's probably obvious that I am for B/A over spuffy (I hate the term "bangel", makes me think of bagels). I don't think there is really any doubt Buffy loves them both. I just enjoyed the B/A storyline so much more than Spuffy's. Season 2, whew, one of the best seasons imo. Also, like others have said, I really wasn't digging spuffy because it kind of made me dislike Spike after a while. Sure, he's funny and has great lines, but I lost a little respect for him. He was so desperate. Like a stage 5 clinger! Also, I agree with Julienbangel about not choosing who you love based on "who's better". People fall for the wrong guy all the time. Just because Spike was extremely devoted to Buffy [a lot of times (pre-ensouled)in a very unhealthy way, i.e. creepy stalking panty-sniffer!] doesn't mean she loved him more than Angel. I think that ties in with the difference between ensouled Spike/souless spike and ensouled Angel/souless Angel. I think Angel went through such a more drastic transition than Spike. He was waaayy worse a person as a human than Spike human was. In fact, they were total opposites in personality. William = insecure, frequently rejected mommas boy. Liam = confident womanizing rebellious selfish jerk. Also, remember Angel's father? Remember Spike's mom? Totally different.

Also, I always thought Angel was completely devoted to not just her, but her well-being. His reason for leaving her is kind of summed up in the age-old saying, "if you love her, let her go". I think that's why I prefer B/A. It such a complex relationship. Plus, they have epic sword fights!

Wait a minute, Willow did appeared on Angel for season 4, as well as faith on both shows. But I'm talking about intricate, detailed storylines. I mean, JW had a crossover for season 4, season 5, an Angel visit on btvs. But there's nothing after that.

And I get where you coming from as well, but it does not erace the fact that Buffy and Angel barely interacted with each other after S3 of BTVS. We can go into details of WHY SMG was not available and WHY DB was not (btw, Buffy did not know Spike was alive by the time of season 5 of ATS), but if we stick to a plot-line, according to that Buffy and Angel broke up after S3 of BTVS and knew almost nothing about each other since then. They missed to much in each other's lives. It does not erase the fact that they will always love each other, though. But in my opnion, you cannot love your first love forever when it did not work. You cannot live for years without seeing a person and still keep thinking "What if?". Angel chose to walk away and Buffy did not stop him. Walking away is easier. Fighting is more complecated. He could have gone to Africa like Spike and try to get rid of the curse. He could have figured out anything, they both could have. But they chose to break up and since then they lived new lives without each other. Angel didn't see Buffy through her growing up just as Buffy didn't see his evolation either.

As for William and Liam I cannot agree that William's journey was less dramatic. Both had a very dramatic one, imo. After being turned into a vampire William still kept his heart of a poet and lived with this contradiction for many many years. And I believe that is why he was capable of love even without a soul. Liam went through a lot too, though, his story is completely different, but also amazing. I like both vampires, just when it comes to relationships I prefer Spuffy.

Lovely, mature, level headed debate i see! Thank you for inviting me Mary! :)

I was having a debate with another user on another forum and so i will essentially copy and paste her POV (in quotes) and my reply. Sorry. But its easier than typing the whole thing all over again :)

Before i jump in with what i suspect will be a monstrous post, i would just like to clarify something.

There is a lot of talk about Angel not being there for Buffy, not being crossover episodes, not being mentioned in each others lives, etc and i think thats one of the weakest arguments for either couple. Either for Spuffy or Bangel. When Angel got his own show, the character was forced to move to another city to make that change work. There was no way the writers could make Angel as a show work if they were constantly making it seem like the poor mans BTVS. While Angel and Buffy wasnt able to spend time in each others shows, that was more of a logistical thing than any real argument on the merit of either ship. If Angel wasnt there for Buffy, or is Spike wasnt there for her, it wasnt because either one didnt want to be,

And also, this talk about Angel not taking a risk for Buffy and travelling far and wide for a soul is also something i view very differently. I think a lot of the decisions that Spike has always made has been to serve Spike. And getting that soul was because he loved a woman and wanted to be with her, do whats best for her and be a better man for her. That is awesome and commendable. But Angel, he had a bigger agenda than just being with the woman he loved. He had done some seriously horrific things in the past. And while being with Buffy was something im sure he wanted more than anything else, as a champion, Angel had a larger responsibility to the world. Had he been able to, im sure he would have travelled the world over three times to be with her. BUt he loved her enough to realise that the things he needed to do, the things he needed to atone for was a lot greater than either him or Buffy or their love. *phew! that was a mouthful*

Ok, let me get stuck in here...

PART 1:
First off i admit that being partial to one character - Angel - makes me automatically want to defend his position above and beyond that of Spike. Having said that, i have ALWAYS loved the Spike character, just not as a potential love interest for Buffy. So im aware of my own bias here ;)

Angel always interested me. from the minute he arrived on screen, the character facinated me. And i think because up until that point, i hadnt really watched much "supernatural" shows and so this new creature, this conflicted 'person' was something i found facinating.

[QUOTE=clarkson_fan]You see, Angel actually never really interested me before him being on his own show. I just don't find it very...herioc, you could say, with him having a soul forced on him. The fact that he never chose to have a soul says something to me. He didn't choose to have a conscious, he didn't choose to have humanity. And i see the part where you could feel for him, because he didn't choose it, but i also don't feel for him in the fact that he's supposed to be this great hero and a champion, when it was never ultimately his choice to be that. [/quote]
Angel always interested me. from the minute he arrived on screen, the character facinated me. And i think because up until that point, i hadnt really watched much "supernatural" shows and so this new creature, this conflicted 'person' was something i found facinating.

As you say, having a soul was not of his choice. But thats what his journey as a character is all about. Angel was an ass as a human. this is told to us many times over the course of both shows. He wasnt a really great person, he wasnt a great son, lover, anything. In fact, he was a drunkard and he was pretty pathetic. When he became a vampire, he was stripped of all emotion. So already, in the Whedonverse, vampires cannot choose to be good or evil. Their base natures are evil. So in that respect, he wasnt capable - as a vampire - of feeling anything for anyone.

When the gypsies cursed him, they knew that the greatest way to make him suffer would be to curse him with the ability to FEEL. By feeling he would be able to realise the pain he caused his family, the wrongs and injustices he had inflicted. And most importantly, he would be able to feel remorse for the lives he had taken, and the cruel manner in which he had done so. We know that Angelus was a badass. He killed indiscrimanantly and for pleasure always. He killed babies and woman and he was feared. So when he was cursed, he was able to - for lack of a better phrase - hold a mirror up to himself and reflect on all the horrible things he had done. THAT was the point of the curse. He was never supposed to have a choice. The ability to feel was the ultimate curse.

Him being a champion didnt happen overnight. As we saw, it took him a long time to fulfill his "destiny" as this champion. What made him great was the process of reaching a place he never thought he could. Angel didnt WANT to be a champion. And yes, he didnt ASK for it. But what made the character great was his reluctant acceptance of what was required of him, and the fullfillment of that destiny at the expense of his own happiness.

[quote]See, to me, Spike choosing to get a soul, especially for love, says something. [/quote]
I dont remember the exact way in which Spike was gifted with a soul. Wasnt it also a choice between one thing and another or something like that? I dont recall the specifics. Maybe you can just run me through it?

[quote]And Angel not getting that choice makes the whole "hero" thing seemed kind of forced upon him, and not his right to have. Because when he's an actual vampire, he is evil, and is nothing but evil, and that is who he was before he got his soul, and as his actual vampire self, he would have never chosen to have a soul. I'd also like to add that he didn't seem like all that great of a person when he was human either. [/quote]
Thats the point though. The hero thing WAS forced on him. And the journey of Angel on BTVS and on Angel was about HOW he came to accept and embrace his destiny. In Remember Me, Angel is granted humanity. And in the end, he chooses his destiny over the woman he loves because he realises that his own happiness isnt what its about. Its about being able to protect the people he loved and atone for the sins he had commited as Angelus. This time around, Angel chose the path that was forced on him when he was cursed. That there is storytelling coming full circle.

[quote]It also really annoyed me how people always treated Angel so nice, but never Spike, even after he got a soul. Buffy, to me, was the only one who treated Spike better than before once he got his soul. [/quote]
I always loved Spike. Always. He was such a great character. But remember, Spike was introduced to the show and we got to know him as the Scooby gang got to know him. He was a badass along with Dru. So yeah, people didnt like him much. But i think that was the appeal of the character for the audience. Buffy didnt really treat him all that great too. At least not until much later. But that was the journey of Spike's character. And its the path he had to walk so we could understand the choices he makes later on i.e. sacrificing himself, etc.

Soul mate is a concept i believe in. I think it does exist but its not mutually exclusive. Ie. It could be in a romantic sense or in a friendship capacity. But personally, i think soulmate is about the meeting of the minds. A deep, abiding friendship and understanding that exists between two people, even if they're not in a romantic relationship. Its that deep understanding of each other, the "i get you" that makes for that inspiring connection between two people. Its like, no matter what **** goes down, basically these two people have each others back. I dont think ive personally met my romantic soulmate - if he even exists. But my best friend and i are totally and completely the mirror of each other. And its not in the literal sense.

Re: Buffy and Angel and soulmates. I think these two characters are one of the better examples of this notion of "getting each other". I think he was her first love. Angel might have loved many before her. But i think there was something about this girl, something about the way she made him feel that changed Angel as a person. Being in possession of a soul meant he was able to communicate that love. Being without it scared the **** out of Angelus. He could feel everything Angel felt, but he was able to store it in a much darker place.

Angel loved Buffy from the moment he laid eyes on her. Maybe it was that meeting of the minds, recognising the other half of yourself. Spike learned to love her when he was aided by - a soul - which allowed him to feel. Either way, both men were worthy of her. My choice for her will always be Angel though.

PART 2 to follow

PART 2:

Spike didnt chose to be anything but evil either did he? At least up until he got the chip? Im not sure. So i stand to be corrected here. :confused: Either way, Angelus and Spike were also two completely different beasts. Angelus was the most feared monstor in all of creation. Spike was not even in his shadow in terms of sheer badassery. So in the department of atonement, i think by default Angel has a lot more to be sorry for. Also, wasnt Spike also always somewhat jealous of Angelus? (jealous of Angelus :D )

But isnt that the entire thing with heroes? Every one ever created is flawed in some way. And their path to redemption is about shedding the shackles that bind them and moving onto the path of righteousness. From reluctant anti-hero to hero. Thats how all the good stories tell them. If Angel had been written as choosing a soul, immediately doing what was right and good, fighting for the disenfranchised, would that have made him half as compelling as a character? Would it have made him relatable and a sympathetic character? I dont think so. It would have made him seem perfect in a world where perfection rarely existed. Angel was flawed. Being able to realise over the course of time that the path given to him is actually the one he was meant to be on is a beautiful thing. What conflict would Angel have had within himself if everything came easy? If he chose to be good. If he chose to use his powers for good? If he did what was right? That would've made him a better "human" than all the worlds population because people are inhearabtly flawed and our salvation comes in the form of the way we choose to live our lives. These characters are imperfect diamonds in the rough. The point of good storytelling is being able to show their journey from Point A (when we meet this broody loner in Buffy) to Point Z (when we see our champion - a position earned and fought for - sacrifice his life to save the world) Because in that finale, we believe that Angel has lived a full life. And that no matter what the outcome of the battle, he was laying his life in the path of evil.

Having said that, Spike was an anti-hero too. He started out as a badass and Buffy helped tame the beast. He too had a journey to walk and a path to thread that brought him full circle - being the ability to fight for good without personal gain. And the ability to love another person unconditionally. The story of Spike. And that too was epic.

[quote]see you say he didn't WANT to be a champion. Right there. He didn't want it. And it was a reluctant acceptance. You're giving my point for me here Why should someone who didn't want the title, get the title? [/quote]
Because the world isnt a fair place and just because i dont want the responsibility of taking care of my family doesnt meant that it isnt my responsibility anyway. We do what we must. When we must. And we accept the challenges - good or bad, sucky or fantastic - that life throws at us because thats life. Its not always easy. Because in the end it didnt matter whether he wanted it or not. The point is that he lived his life earning that title. With every good deed. With every sacrifice. With every kind word. He earned the right to be that Champion. Remember in the beginning, especially after the prophecy was uncovered, Angel was scared out of his wits that there was something so huge - a prophesy about his destiny - weighing on his shoulders. The point of the show Angel was to show the audience how this reluctant hero embraced his destiny and shaped the world around him by becoming the thing he never thought he could be or wanted to be.

[quote]...i think that Spike deserved it more.[/quote]
Ok. Then why? Why did he deserve it more? If you take out the fact that he chose humanity, what made Spike worthy? For the most part, Spike served no master but himself. He didnt really fight for a greater cause. His motives were shaped by what was best for Spike at the time. When he finally joined the cast of Angel as a full time cast member, Spike had changed. He wasnt really who we knew from Buffy. He was a better person absolutely. Was he better than Angel? Maybe. Maybe not. We could debate that forever depending on which POV you were arguing for. But the thing is, Spike served Spike. Angel served the people. He sacrified for the people. Not for Buffy. Not for Cordy. Not for Connor. For everyone else.

Ah yes! The chip thing. I had forgotten about that. Oh crap. I need to go rewatch those episodes. I cannot really comment on Spike's motivations there. I dont remember much about that part of the show :( It was so long ago. All i remember was him wanting the chip out of his brain - which was regulating his emotions i assume? I will have to do some research to jog my memory :D

[quote]But again, it took him a century to even get to that point, still having low points with a soul [/quote]
Imagine being mindless for many, many years. And then suddenly, very immediately your sanity is returned to you. And you realise that in the time you were floating about aimlessly, you did the most horrific things. To strangers but also to people close to you. How long would it take you to recover from that knowledge? How long would it take you to recover from killing your own family? One year? Two? A decade? In the life of a vampire, time is a relative thing. 100 years is but a shadow of the time they live. Eternity awaits to set things right. And if Angelus was as evil as we know he was, 100 years of self recrimination, locked inside your own mental torture chamber sounds about fair.

[quote]Still, i must say, it too him 102 years to choose that path.[/quote]
He left Sunnydale because he knew he couldnt be near Buffy and do the things he needed to do. Again, its all relative. Would he have been as compelling a character if he was all shiny and perfect and always doing the right thing right at the moment he was supposed to? I dont think so. The thing that made Angel Angel was because there was always this internal struggle with who he was - as Angelus - knowing what he had done, what he was capable of and struggling with that reality.

[quote]He didn't want the soul. It was a burden[/quote]
Yes it was a burden. A very great burden. And he bore it admirably i think. Wouldnt you find it a burden too? Your past coming back to haunt you every second of your life? A life that is stretching into eternity.

[quote]Soulmates, it just seems like a distinction, and something that doesn't really have to do with love, at least romantic love. So when it is used on a romantic pairing, i cringe. I prefer the term True Love.[/quote]
But what is true love? and when you strip those two terms down to its basic form, dont they mean the same thing? True love can be romantic. It can be platonic. Soulmates can mean romantic love, it can be platonic friendship. I think the word might bother you, but the essense of these two concepts are essentially the same IMO.

[quote]But i think that is a much better term to define two people in love. Like their love is true, is right, and is real in every sense of the word, and they complete each other. They are independent people who has someone, a partner, that fills in the missing pieces of them. Sort of like a puzzle piece. That other person completes you. Their love makes you whole. And fulfilled. Like you haven't fully lived life until you've found your True Love. [/quote]
"...Until you found your true love"
"...Until you found your soulmate"
See.. imo its semantics. in its most basic form, these two things mean the same thing.

[quote]Yeah, see, i'm not much of a believer in love at first sight. It doesn't seem real to me that two people see each other, without really getting to know a person, and decide they are meant to be. That has more to do with image than the real person, IMHO. [/quote]
I dont know anyone who has been hit by love at first sight. Do i believe in it thought? Honestly. I dont know. I have seen no examples of it. It might just be a thing we humans have conjured to provide some balm to our feeble and desperate romantic notions. But i do believe that we can meet someone and instantly connect with that person. Again, it doesnt have to be a romantic connection. But again, its just that thing that draws you to someone. Is that chemistry? Is that physical attraction? You decide.

[quote]But see, Spike loved her without a soul. (Yes, it was a little stalkerish, but is was still love. Love in a way only a soulless vampire could feel) But however he loved her, he still loved her.[/quote]
Love and stalkerish shouldnt neccessarily be in the same sentence :P However, i see your point. I cannot comment though because i dont really remember much about this period in BTVS.

[quote]To me, Angelus may have felt that love that Angel had for Buffy, but he himself didn't feel that for her. At all. He even says "She made me feel human, that isn't something you can forgive." Wow, it seems like i'm talking about two different people, when it really is the same person. [/quote]
That line is so powerful isnt it? So very powerful and its such a testiment to the brilliant writers on that show. And you know what it means, it means that Angelus and Angel were two different people in their souls. But body and mind, they were one and the same person. Angelus was locked inside, always waiting to be unleashed. They werent two different people. He was the alter ego Angel carried inside him. Angelus was a souless monstor. Angel was a tortured anti-hero. Thats epic stuff right there.

Who did SHE love more. I dont now. I think she loved them both in different ways. Who would she choose if they were standing side by side? I dont know if thats a fair question. Spike went through hell to be with her. Angel would do the same but he has great responsibilities to the world as well. Perhaps the answer is neither. I believe that Buffy had a very real, very tangible connection to Angel and i believe just like he would, she would do anything for him. They are, by virtue of my own definition, soulmates :)

Wow, that was great. As a Spuffy fan, I'm going to try and type out my thoughts, but I have to really appologize for my English, because it is not anywhere near good lol

First, about Angel not being there for Buffy being not his choice, but the cause of him getting his own show. In my opinion, a lot of things, related to actors, influented the plot. It happened on other shows, it happened on BTVS. But I think we cannot bring it as an argument and should stick to canon. In canon, Angel wasn't there for Buffy, in canon he walked away and she didn't stop him, in canon they where not there for each other through darkest times, in canon they didn't communicate by any means and barely knew anything about each other's new lives. Here I am talking about writing, about plot, about what was already written about these two characters and their story. I take it as it is and I don't relate it to life, to filming process, contracts or anything else. I'm only sticking to the plot.

The plot didn't give us any evidence of BA communicating by any means like even calling each other or writing e-mails. Where they soulmates, I think they'd do it every day. Especially considering that they both knew about the dangerous life-style of one another. Why wouldn't they even call each other to ask if everything is ok or does one of them need help? I know David couldn't actually come on BTVS and Sarah on ATS, but the whole communication thing could have worked and played out even without them being together on one show - like, showing us how they pick up a phone and call each other every evening or writing letters to each other.

Why wasn't Angel there for Buffy's friends when Buffy was dead? Why didn't he take care of her sister who basically stayed an orphan? If it was due ti Angel's "busy shedule" while fighting evil and saving the world, it is still not an excuse imo, because you always should find time for your loving one or her family in the darkest hour. Again, I know David could not actually be on BTVS, but it could have been played out even without him: for instance, Willow or someone else could have mentioned that Angel came in to know if everything is ok with Dawn.

And even if we take that time when Angel was on BTVS - he saw a pretty girl sucking a lollypop and claimed to fall in love with her heart. Not that I do not find it cute, but I don't think that's how soulmates find each other. In season 1 Angel plays a mysterious stranger who comes in, tells halves of stories, Buffy is intrigued by him, he is handsome, he helps her and they fall in love. I do believe they where in love. But again, their relationship is not what I call "soulmates". We remember how Angel claimed to fall in love with Buffy's "heart", but however, as much as he loved her heart, the cause of them breaking up was them not being able to have sex without Angel loosing his soul. Question: why couldn't Angel do what Spike did, go through trials of torture to get rid of the curse to be with Buffy? I get the whole point about him thinking about the world and not wanting to risk his own being, because his mission was to fight evil. But however, in my personal opinion, you should always choose the one you love even over the world. But instead of trying to do so, Angel just walked away. For greater good.

And this greater good, unfortunatelly, played a rather cruel game with him. I love Angel's character very much, but I think at some point he just went to far with the whole choosing the world over his loving ones thing. So far that he couldn't deal with mentally ill son and chose to slit his throat, erase his memory and give him another life in another family, because a guy was dangerous for the world. I totally get where Angel was coming from, but it is not what I, personally, do approve. It is your family. Your son. Find a way to make him stay your son and keep the world safe from him. By point is - you cannot choose the world over your loving one. You have to find a way to choose both.

Another thing is all the Buffy and Angel rare meetings and reunions. Again, I do not consider the situation about them being on two different shows. I only stick to canon. And in canon we see these two people who barely know each other, coming back from time to time into each other's lives and not even being very helpful. In Chosen Angel came back, gave Buffy the amulet and walked away. Was he her soulmate, he'd definitely stay for the final battle and fought by her side, imo. But it was Spike who fought by Buffy's side. It was Spike who was there for her through everything. And it was Spike who died for Buffy AND the world = he found that exact balance I was talking about. He didn't choose the world over his woman. He chose both.

People u really enjoy talking :D

We do) And Angel and Spike are too flawless to stop talking about them lol

Nice Mary!!! :) For the most part i speak to your post. Quoted some of your text.

"Buffy, in canon he walked away and she didn't stop him, in canon they where not there for each other through darkest times, in canon they didn't communicate by any means and barely knew anything about each other's new lives. Here I am talking about writing, about plot, about what was already written about these two characters and their story. I take it as it is and I don't relate it to life, to filming process, contracts or anything else. I'm only sticking to the plot."

Thats 100% true and i cannot argue with your logic. But while canon is canon, facts are also facts. How could the writers write something that was a physical impossibility? Should they have slipped in more lines about Buffy exchanging emails with Angel? Or something along those lines. LOL. Cant see Angel exactly sending a text. Anyway, i accept and appreciate canon. It is what it is. But i dont think this can be used, IMHO, as a basis for any argument around whether this couple cared any less about each other.

I mean, lets assume Spike got his own show instead of Angel. Would the same rule apply then? Would spike not be allowed any romantic entanglements because of Buffy back in sunnydale? Its not realistic. THose shows were two different, yet parallel worlds and there was no way we could have Buffy mooning over Angel in Sunnydale and Angel being all emo in LA. (although for the most part we know Angel was uber emo anyway! LOL) Both characters needed to work with what they had in their respective lives.

Re: Communication
I think the thing with Buffy and Angel wasnt about communicatiing with each other. It was about NOT communicating with each other. Angel and Buffy could never be together. He had a soul that was in danger of being lost if he ever got too close to her - physically and i suppose to some extent emotionally. It was, quite simply, impossible for either to be around the other. LIke Buffy once said, "it hurts too much" It was almost an unbearable physical pain. It was torturous. The one thing in the world they both wanted but couldnt have. He left Sunnydale to give her the chance at a normal life. She let him go because she realised that they didnt have a future together as long as he was cursed. Their idea was a clean break. I think its obvious with other character crossovers there was always a curiousity from both ends around how the other person was doing. But to actually communicate all the time...? I dont think they could have if they wanted to. Its like putting ice cold water in front of a man in the dessert and as he reaches for it, you pull it away. It would have been hurtful and cruel IMO.

I cant comment on the "Angel wasnt there when Buffy was dead" scenario. I dont remember much about it. But Dawn was not Angel's responsibility and neither were the people back in Sunnydale. I actually dont even think this is strange. I mean, did Dawn even really know Angel? Should he have sent a card? Some flowers? Maybe. But thats not Angel. He would have dealt with her death in the only way he knew how. Tragically alone and inside his head. And i think on ATS there was a arc around how Angel dealt with the news if her death on that show. So in some way, it was addressed. Just not on BTVS.

i think quite simply, Buffy was a breathe of fresh air at a time in Angels life when there was nothing but aimless deprevation. She was like no other woman he had ever met. And i think that intrigued him. Buffy was pretty shallow in the beginning. But she bloomed into a wonderfully skilled, intelligent, fiesty, sensitive, badass woman. I think there was a part of Angel that always sensed that was within her. That is why i think he was attracted to her and ultimately loved her.

I dont think they broke up because of sex at all. I think they broke up because they loved each other, they wanted to be close to each other. That closeness was about an emotional connection but yes, inevitably also a physical one. They could never, ever be alone for fear that their craving to want to be together would culminate in a sexual encounter. It was almost forbidden. So while it might seem on the surface it was about sex. It was actually not about sex at all. It was about wanting to give yourself to someone completely. YOur body, your mind, your soul. Buffy and Angel couldnt really meet each other on either of those levels because he might turn into the worse evil the world has ever seen. Its being responsible for the possible ramifications of your actions. They made the hard, very hard grown up decision to do whats best for everyone - at the expense of their own happiness.

"Question: why couldn't Angel do what Spike did, go through trials of torture to get rid of the curse to be with Buffy? I get the whole point about him thinking about the world and not wanting to risk his own being, because his mission was to fight evil. But however, in my personal opinion, you should always choose the one you love even over the world. But instead of trying to do so, Angel just walked away. For greater good."

I think we like to talk about what we would do because its easier that way. We are not in a particular situation and can therefore not judge it in totality. Why did Angel not do what Spike did? Angel was restored to human form in Remember Me. He got his beating heart back. And he had never been happier in his life. And he could have stayed that way. BUt he realised that it was not possible. That the reason for staying away from Buffy may have been removed, but the perils and the dangers still remained. By being human he was no help to her. He was a burden she would have to protect. And while i understand on some level that we want to be with the people we love, we would do anything for them, Angel was a character that had done too many horrific things in his lifetime. A happily ever after would not come so easy. And he knew that. He might have walked away yes, but in doing so he saved millions of lives, including Buffys. Had they stayed together, Angel would have been a human anchor and they would quite possibly have lost the greatest battles for control of the world. That is not romantic. I think that would have been a mistake. So he loved her enough to let her go. He loved her enough to focus on the job he needed to do, the prophecy he was meant to fullfil and the legacy he was charged with leaving behind. That for me is the epitome of romantic :D

Re: Connor
Angel realised that it was because of the world they lived in that his son was the way he was. He loved Connor enough to want to give him the chance at a normal life, with a normal family. And when we meet Connor in the finale, we can see this was the right choice. Had Connor never been stolen by Holt, we might not be talking about this because that boy would have grown up in a very different way. Angel doted on his son, and loved him unconditionally. That much was painfully obvious. The hardest scene for me to ever watch was when Angel throws Connor out of the hotel.

When he says:
"Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh... and cruel.. but that’s why there's us.. champions. It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done, or suffered. Or even if we make a difference. We live as though the world were as it should be, to show it what it can be."

How beautiful is that? It breaks my heart. Because the next thing he says to his son is: I Love You. Now get out. Its beautiful and its poignant and it shows you just how much he loves this boy. And yet the only thing to do is to let him go. Angel couldnt choose both. He didnt have that luxury.

And finally, Spike lived in Sunnydale. Fighting the big bad with Buffy was what he needed to do. So in canon. But also just a logistical fact.

"He didn't choose the world over his woman. He chose both"
Spike didnt have the record Angelus had. He didnt have the responsibility of atoning for decades of raping and pillaging. And he didnt have the burden of doing what was right for his family (Cordy, Gunn, Wesley, Fred, Lorne, even Connor) All im saying is, for Spike, the choice was a lot easier and a lot simpler.

I really get what you are saying and I respect your point. I'll try to explain what I mean and what I think and hope you will understand me too, even if you won't agree (which is ok, we all can have different points).

How could the writers write something that was a physical impossibility?

Cant see Angel exactly sending a text

As I wrote, there are ways of communication such as phone calls or e-mails. If two people love each other, they find a way to communicate and Angel would learn how to text. I didn't see BA even trying to keep in touch. I think even in a situation when David was not available for BTVS and Sarah wasn't available for ATS, there was still a chance to make their communication believable.

It was, quite simply, impossible for either to be around the other. LIke Buffy once said, "it hurts too much" It was almost an unbearable physical pain. It was torturous.

It IS painful. And it is hard. But you go through it if you really are soulmates. Choosing to leave is always easier than choosing to stay and later I'll explain my point here. No matter how much pain it takes, imo, you should be by each other's side.

I mean, lets assume Spike got his own show instead of Angel. Would the same rule apply then?

If Spike got his show instead of Angel, I'd stick to canon as I do now and if I wouldn't see any evidence of these two persons communication with each other by any means, yet still considered THE couple of the whole series (even though they are away from each other, don't speak to each other, don't support each other even being far away), I wouldn't personally approve it. That is probably my main problem with post season 3 Bangel.

I think the thing with Buffy and Angel wasnt about communicatiing with each other. It was about NOT communicating with each other

This is exactly why I don't see them as soulmates. I (and it is my personal opinion, imho, etc, you don't have to agree with it and I respect your point, but I'll stick to mine here) don't think you can be considered soulmates or a couple if you are not together. And again, no matter what stands on your way, even if it is the whole world saving thing, you have to find a chance to be together if you are soulmates. It is easier to be away from each other, to not know anything about each other, not being there for each other and not communicating with each other, but come in into each other's lives from time to time and then leaving again and still be considered "soulmates", even if basically you are two strangers that barely know each other and anything about each other's new life. This is not what I personally define as soulmates. Just imho, of course.

He left Sunnydale to give her the chance at a normal life.

...without him. This is my problem and also everything I typed before. You don't just leave your soulmate, you fight for your love and for being together and you don't choose the world or duty over it. You search for a way to choose both.

But Dawn was not Angel's responsibility and neither were the people back in Sunnydale

Actually, I think she was Angel's responsibility, since Dawn was a part of Buffy. A family of a woman he loved and lost. And I think it is logical for a loving man to be there for a family of your loving woman. Dawn was nobody to Spike as well. But he was there for her, protecting her, babysitting her. Scoobies didn't even like Spike, but he stayed and helped, he didn't just leave Dawn. And he was a soulles "creature" at that periode. I am not saying that Angel, by that time soulful and bounded with his mission of world saving, should have left everything and moved to Sunnydale for Dawn & co, but he had to communicate with them on a regular basis, imo. Because they where the most important people of Bufy's life.

He loved her enough to focus on the job he needed to do, the prophecy he was meant to fullfil and the legacy he was charged with leaving behind. That for me is the epitome of romantic

To me it is a bit different:) I think we all have a job to do, but however, no matter what, you have to find a way to be with your loving one, even if it seems impossible. Spike did find a way to be with Buffy and fight evil in S7. And I do not think it was easier for him at all. He chose to fight for his soul and with it he got the terrible pain of dealing with guilt and he wanted to do everything to completely fight the monster inside him. He willingly accepted his way of being a Champion and he fought for the right thing without asking anything in return. And there was a moment of a total despair when Spike wanted to leave for good, thinking he might be dangerous, thinking that Buffy and co can do it on her own, but Buffy - she stopped him. "I'm not ready for you not to be here". And he stayed. She asked him to stay and he stayed:) This is, for me, the epitome of romantic:)

I Love You. Now get out.

To me, it was painfull to hear... It showed why exactly I cannot approve Angel's choses. Even though I love his character to pieces I just can't. You don't let go of the one you love. You do not send him away. You work out all the issues no matter what it takes. And stay by his side. Especially when it is your child. You don't kick your child out of the house after one mistake, especially knowing that this child was treaked by a psycho.

He didnt have that luxury.

He had... He is a father. And Connor was just a kid who needed help. A kid who suffered for his whole life. I kid you do not just kick out of the house after he made a mistake. IMO, it was so wrong.

Angel realised that it was because of the world they lived in that his son was the way he was. He loved Connor enough to want to give him the chance at a normal life, with a normal family

This topic is actually painful for me to discuss for many reasons... but I cannot approve what Angel did here. This family was not Connor's. Angel took a decision for Connor, eraced his memory and eraced him out of the lives of everyone who knew him. Instead of dealing with the fact that his son is what he is and going through whatever it takes to bring him back to normal and being by his side, Angel did what he thought is good for Connor, but for true, imo, it was completely wrong and it was like eracing someone's personality and taking his life away from him. And giving away your own child... And again, like with Buffy, Angel did it for greater good and for Connor's own good as he saw it, but for true he just took all the decisions for Connor and did what was easier. I know it was not emotionally easy for Angel at all, but imo, walking away or letting go of someone, even if you leave this someone to live a "better life" without you, is a wrong way. Always. The right way is to stay. Like Spike in S7. And I don't think it was easy for Spike to stay. It was emotionally very hard for him and also, as we all remember, he ended up saving everyone and dying for the world, but he was by the side of a woman he loved. He was defending the woman he loved. This is what I call being soulmates, even though this word makes me gigle quite often lol

Pretty much, this is it:)

I think that our world view is of course very much responsible for the way we ultimately view things.

We differ on fundamental things because our perceptions are competely different. Which of course, is completely ok because differing opinions make the world go around. In the end, i dont expect to convince you of anything, as im sure you dont expect of me either. So in summation, i think these are the key issues:

You believe:

1. Communication
Buffy and Angel didnt communicate in canon therefore they cannot be "soulmates"

2. Comfort
Angel wasnt there for her (or her family) in times of need therefore it wasnt true love

3. Serving the greater good
Angel chose to serve the world instead of commiting to Buffy/and or choosing the world and Buffy (both) therefore they were not meant to be

4. Walking away
Angel always chose to walk away instead of fight for what he wanted and make it work therefore he didnt care enough. I.e She asked Spike to stay, he stayed, Angel left therefore he must have loved/cared for Buffy less

I think those are kind of the main points of differing opinion.

In response i believe:

1. Communication
Perhaps the issue is in the definition of soulmate. You seem to believe that to be in love, or to really care about someone you have to communicate with them to show that love. I disagree completely. There are so many examples throughout history and literature of couples who loved deeply and across time but had to "give the other up" because of various reasons. Eg Jane Eyre. She loved Mr Rochester with every fibre of her being. And he loved her. But they both knew they could not be together. He was married to a crazy person and she could not bare to be near him and not be able to be with him. While the circumstances of B&A are of course not that of Mr R & Jane, the principal is my intent. Being close to someone or constant communication is not IMO a prerequisite for judging how much you someone or to which extent you are their equal in mind and soul.

As i said, B&A couldnt communicate with one another. Their inability to be with each other - because of the curse - prohibited them from being able to even see each other casualy. IMO that doesnt equate to meaning they could therefore not be soulmates. Or that it wasnt true love. If anything, just the opposite. to be in contact, casual contact, any contact was not a possibility for each other. They loved and cared too deeply.

Either way, i think we differ here and will continue to differ because of that basic distinction.

2. Comfort
Once again, i see your reasoning and logic. But i cannot concur. Angel's presence in Dawn's life would have been not only OOC for him but also inappropriate. He was the ex-boyfriend of her sister who she didnt even really know. They had no connection. They had no ties. Dawn knew Spike. So while he was still technically a "bad person" or whatever, it wasnt weird for him to be there. Spike was also part of hte Buffy verse. The Scoobies knew what Buffy meant to Angel. And that is why (i cant remember exactly) but either Willow calls him or goes to LA or Oz goes to LA? Either way, this arc is explored more on Angels show than it was on BTVS. Besdies, Angel showing up at that time would not have been about Buffy. It would have turned into a vampire testosterone display between him and Spike. Angel felt her loss keenly. And he moarned her in his own way on his show. I believe he had no place in Sunnydale.

3. Serving the greater good
Again here, a fundamental difference in our opinion. Angels responsibilities to humanity imo superceded his own basic needs. No matter how much he loved Buffy, his first responsibility was to the world. That sucks - badly. But he had penance and redemption to work towards. Time and literature is also littered with examples of this. Men who love women but have responsibilities to the world that are far greater at that point in time. As things stand, Buffy was written into the finale of Angel. SMG schedule didnt allow for it and in the end they shot around that. Had she shown up, i have no idea how Angel might have ended..

4. Walking away
I know you feel strongly that he never fought for what he wanted. And i also know you feel that he walked away from Buffy without staying and working at their problems. Again, that may be canon, but the realities are that Angel had to move to LA. He needed to go elsewhere. In the Whedonverse, the character was moved to LA. I just feel really strongly that Angel, in many things, always made the right choices. I feel really strongly that staying in Sunnydale and being with Buffy would not have been the right choice, or the choice showing his devotion to her. I think it would have been a selfish choice made out of a need to satisfy his own personal agenda. And Angel didnt have a personal agenda. His agenda was already spelt out by powers much higher than he was. So no. I dont think he walked away from Buffy. Or Connor for that matter. While i understand your anger towards the mind swipe thing, i will concede there. Perhaps removing Connor's memory wasnt the best decision. And i suspect, by your own admission, that you have personal issues which make you feel so strongly about this. But i will defend Angels action as a father here. I totally understand it. He loved that boy. But there came a time where he needed to let him go. Tough love or whatever psychological label you want to place on it. Connor wasnt a child. And up until that point, every avenue explored with love, patience, reason and acceptance was met with childish tantrums, stubborn indifference and a killer instinct. Lets not forget that Connor planned and executed his fathers murder. While Angel loved that boy, he had to let him go and figure things out for himself. There was no other choice. And even though Connor was "kicked out", Angel kept close tabs on him. So he knew exactly where he was and what he was doing.

So while it seems cold and cruel, it definitely was not as simple as "never giving up on your son, or always being there for him". Angel tried that. It was time for a new approach. And frankly, i think it was about time that kid was kicked on his ass. Connor had a hard life. But up until that point he blamed his father for everything that went wrong with him. Holt had ensured that. There was no reasoning with Connor. And no amount of patience at that point would have helped. Bottom line, i get it. I get why he did it. And i remember when watching the show i punched the air and shouted "about damn time!" LOL

Hey, great answer!:) I really do get your point and I see, by your responce, that you got mine too. We won't try to change each other's opinions, I respect yourth very much, hope you respect mine too so I'll just kinda put the summary of my own thoughts lol

Communication

This where I have a different opinion and I'll stick to it. I don't believe that two people can not see each other for years and communicate with each other and still be meant to be. NOTICE, a very important notice: I'm only talking about cases when two people CAN actually talk to each other and see each other, but don't do this, because they believe it is gonna bring them both pain and give unnecessary hopes. Basically, that is how BA lived for years. Yes, phisically they could not be together and yes, communicating by means of calling each other or writing or meeting from time to time would be hard, BUT I believe if you really are soulmates, that is what you do.

I don't think that staying in Sunnydale would be a selfish decision. I think it would be the right decision. Staying by the side of your loving one. That is what soulmatesdo, in my opinion. He can fight evil as long as he wants to, he can take Buffy to travel with him around the world to find a way to make his soul permanent, but he HAS to be with her, somehow and someway.

As for Dawn, I don't think it would be weird at all if Angel helped her after Buffy's death. Yes, he was her sister's ex, but he did LOVE her sister. And if a man loved a woman, I believe he has a responsibility and this responsibility spreads on her family and friends too. Dawn was a part of Buffy. Angel not being there for her at all and not even trying to communicate with her in some way after Buffy's death is not what I personally think a soulmate should do.

Angel is not the one I blame. Buffy did exactly the same. She didn't know anything about Angel and his life in LA, she didn't even know about his son. I believe in moments like Connor's being kidnapped your soulmate should be by your side supporting you. And your soulmate is the one you can tell everything that happens in your life. Buffy and Angel didn't know anything about each other's lives and they didn't support each other through the darkest times. I believe that being a soulmates means knowing and seeing the best and the worst of each other. It means sharing your love and your pain with each other.

As for Connor... I really don't want to go there, because again, this topic is quite painfull for me to discuss, but I just cannot defend Angel's actiones here. See, in my opinion, a parent is always responsible for his child and a parent has NO right to give his child away or kicking him out. Even if this child is pure evil (which Connor was not, he was just a confused boy who needed help. Remember how even being in pain Connor still tried to save a man from commiting suicide? Connor wasn't hopeless and even if he was, still what Angel did was wrong, imo), as a father, you have no right to change something in his head, erase his memory and personality and integrate him into some other family. Yes, even if you believe that it is better for him and for the world, you have no right... Let the world go to hell, this is YOUR child. And he should stay yourth till the end. This is just my opinion.

So, that's pretty much all I wanted to say:)))

High 5 Mary! A stirring debate by two level headed chicks :) Thank You for that. It shows that while we differ, we can still respect each other's POV. I look forward to spotting you on the boards. Who knows, we might need to hash out some other ships too :)

Lol amazing! This debate was one of the greatest I ever had about BTVS and BA & SB. This show and it's couples totally deserved it. It was so interesting to read your thoughts. You should explore fanpop btw, it's a great place and we can find more topics to discuss here :))))

I think Buffy belongs with Spike! he loves her more than anything in the world and he would do absolutely anything for her! without a soul he went to get a soul for her to give her the man she deserved, he saved the world and died doing it for her, he would do anything for her! I loved Angel and Buffy when they were together, but they are better apart, they went on different paths, and I feel like a Angel should be alone it's just the way he should be he's meant to be alone! and what I really love about Spike is how he never gives up on something, he always keeps trying and I like that in a person, Angel just sort of gave up on Buffy and I don't really like that about Angel!

^ THIS.

BA where cute when they where together, but then they simply went different paths and didn't know anything about each other, where not there for each other. Plus, Angel couldn't love her without a soul, he wasn't even attracted to her the way he was to Darla. Spike did everything to deserve her, he chose to have a soul, because he knew that without it he wouldn't be the right man for Buffy. He couldn't bear a thought of hurting her. He didn't ask Buffy for anything in return in season 7, just stayed by her side.

Btw, I also agree about Angel... I like him more as a character when he has no love interest.

I'd like to add some opinions about this matter...in fact angel was always by buffys side when she was down..like her mother death and whwen she was revived although it didn't appear in tv because of the different upn vs wb...angel was a lot better than spike because he tried to pay for what he did and spike just loved buffy...there's no compare between bangel and spuffy...just remember angel season one episode eight "i will remember you"...buffy season eight shows clearly that angel and Buffy still love each other..their love is a forever kind of love..

Spike didn't pay for what he did? He went through trials of torture to get his soul back. Yes, it was mostly for Buffy, but the main reason was that he didn't want to be a monster again. He willingly put himself through madness and for the whole S7 he had to carry guilt over what he did and people he killed. He evolved into a true hero and true champion, he chose the path of redemption on his OWN, not because it was forced on him by the curse, and he sacrificed himself for the world.

I am for Angel and buffy! the Angel character grew on me, cuz i had the same experiences, the serie reflect life and reality, but told in a fiction. I am not for Spike and Buffy, cuz as a guy myself, i see that spike is a douchebag who exploited her in her own selfhishness. Even tho in 7 season a slightly change.

Angel couldn't come and take care of anything, cuz of the scooby gang was scared of ''Angelus'' and the old hatred, including that joss wanted the Angel Character to grow without buffy and the vampire slayer. And if there was no Angel show, i am sure he would be there! but as in the story, He hidden away in tears on a Fighting school far away from anyone in Asia, and he concidered to kill himself cuz he felt that he wasn't the one to survive out of them two, but cordy convinced him to fight in her honor and to her memory insted.

Angel gave up humanity cuz buffy would die if he was human ( Joss whedon is shakespear )
Angel had a choice between suicide or leaving, so Angelus would never happened again. including everyone convinced him of the truth that buffy would never have a normal life with him.
Angel would have weared that neclace if he was there ( Fact )

Just because spike fucked her many times and tricked her to bed, i am not suprised that girls likes it, it's all the bad boy act

Hey guys! First of all I would like to apologize for my English, since it is not that great. That being said, I will try to say a few things about Spike, since he is one of my favourite characters all time (Buffy too ☺).

I should mentiond that I have always been a Buffy-Spike fan, but never disliked Angel or his relationship with Buffy. But what I do not fully understand, is why some of us say that Spike was not capable of love before getting a soul.

From my point of view, Spike has always been a romantic guy. I know that at a certain point in Buffy it is mentioned that vampires do get some of the characteristics/traits they initially had, when they were humans (I am sorry, but do not remember the episode -> note to self: watch the series again ☺ ).

We all know that Spike was a devoted son, and was capable of true and deep love. And we can later see these traits pass on to Spike the vampire. He deeply loves Drusilla and cares for her. Then, he gets a chip, realizes he cannot hurt humans and assumes he cannot hurt demons either, and therefore goes for shelter, food and protection to The Scoobies. At the beginning, he cannot hurt them, but would surely enjoy doing so very much. After a while, I believe he sees the beauty and strength of Buffy, so he starts having feelings for her. Feelings which easily become true love (lets not forget his romantic nature, I mentioned before ☺). Spike has always been a fool for love ☺. So the way I see it, the chip offered him the opportunity to see and meet Buffy, and later to fall in love with her. But he certainly does not love her because of the chip, since you have to be capable of love, and Spike definitely was.

And here comes the main difference between Spike and Angel (the way I see it). Angel was never able of love without a soul. He was “pure evil”. He had intercourse with Darla (hope I remember her name correctly), but in the same time slept with Drusilla (in spite of Spike’s protests). So from my point of view, Angel had sex only because it felt good (☺), but not because he also loved his sex partner. As a soulless vampire he never cared for anything (if I’m wrong, please let me know ☺). Spike on the other hand (I know I’m repeating myself) has always been capable of love (I just remembered that in a certain episode Drusilla also mentions that vampires are quite capable of love).

I also do not believe that Spike had an obsession with Buffy. I think he was simply the type of person that loves with a burning passion. And that is why he accepts being used by Buffy (and by doing that he uses her as well). And Spike is there for her, and comforts her whenever she is lonely and depressed.

One more thing: if I say that Spike is capable of love (even without a soul), I’m not saying he is able to discern between right or wrong. I believe he is not, at least not like a being with a soul. He is still evil inside (from our perspective, the human’s perspective; if we take a second and reflect upon that, I believe we can realize that vampires have always fought slayers; something like a big cat/lion fighting/killing a zebra…that is just how things are). But because he loves Buffy, he also sees her as his moral guideline. He always does (or tries to do) whatever he thinks Buffy would like. And perhaps he starts liking other people (like Dawn), since he is able to have feelings. But what we should appreciate about Spike, is that he tries really hard. He really gives everything for the woman he loves.

Lastly, I do admit that he tried to rape Buffy, but like I said in the paragraph before, he was still a demon inside. Once he realized his mistake, he was terrified by it, and as we all know, decided to go on a long journey and get a soul.

I am not saying you should accept my view. But that is how I view things. Hope I’ll get some replies, so we can learn from each other ☺.

PS1: Go Spike! :D
PS2: Bollocks!

ok i like angel and spike although i do think angel got better when he got his own show because in buffy he was depressed all the time but in angel he was funny and the charector developed a lot more! they both loved buffy in their own ways and she loved them in her own way but it really annoys me when people keep going on about bangel being soulmates they fell in love when buffy was 16/17 she was really young, everyone has a first love but it doesnt mean your never going to meet someone new and love them just the same maybe even more! think people need to move on they did! buffy moved on to riley and spike and angel had a one true moment of happiness in his fantasy with cordi. and i actually think angel and cordi were better for each other than bangel because they had a lot of jokes and smiles whereas with buffy it was all drama. but tbh i dont think angel can ever really have a healthy relationship because he cant have sex incase he loses his soul so yeah i also think buffy needs help cause she always goes for relationships that are unhealthy think she likes being hurt because all 3 relationships were dodgy from the start

Spike
Angel and Buffy had the forbidden love crap that we've all seen a thousand times. Spike and Buffy had what you could call a real life relationship. Angel and Buffy were a fairytale, Romeo and Juliet story (no wonder they killed theirselves), but, if you'd join me back in real life, people use each other, people don't always work out in relationships, it's messy, but it's also real. That's a real relationship, which is what Spuffy had.

Oh, hello guys))) Would start with saying my english sucks, so sorry for grammar. Hell, this the first civil conversation between Spuffy and Bangel fans. Thats cool, that Non of You insult each other, or say something like Spike never loved Buffy, or she never loved him, or that Angel never loved Buffy...Yeah ,forgot to say, that I am Spuffy inside out. :-) Everyone I think made good point in given arguments for one or other character, lets see what I can add))) I think I should not agree that Angel and Angelus are two different persons, thats would be not fair to Spike, but as we saw also in SLEEPER not sure its correct, but yeah, Spike when he got his soul he went crazy and had to fight his demon as well, he was killing humans and did not remember, sure it was first evil who made him, but I think it was kind of same with Angelus and Angel I guess when it took time for Angel to remember what he did when without soul. The thing is also that Angel had no one when he was cursed, thats maybe why it took him so long to get on the road of champion, Spike was on that road before his soul, and he had scoobs and Buffy, even if Scoobs were not really supportive but they were kind of still there.
Both of them did big mistakes and were selfish at times, or did something really stupid or very bad. like Angel sleeps with Darla lies to his friends, and Spike keeping some demon eggs and making Buffybot.
Spike almost raped Buffy, but I still prefer to be blind and deft then believe it was his evil plan after all, he was afraid, confused, angry and madly in love with her, and she did gave in many times in past even when she said no before, so do not , he was confused and did not how to make things right, he came to talk and try to get her to forgive him for Anya, and make her except that she feels for him, but she lives in Egypt and he loses control and proves her point that he cannot be trusted. Angel he did not die to save the world, but he did die to save Human Darla, means he loved her, and he loved Cordy and his son, but he choses big fight and lets his friends and dear people die, like Fred, he knew someone had to die, and he choses to let it happen, He created situation when they had no choice, same with Buffy and playing people memories, it is kind of manipulative and abusive and same bad as rape, thats why I think Lorne leaves his team on the end. Angel does not think it is important to tell his team that Spike saved the world , got his soul himself and died saving the world, his sometimes childish jealousy is annoying, same as his loss of humor, and all big persona image with head of law evil firm and expensive cars and armanni suits. Buffy has no money at all to pay house and keep Dawn, when Angel gets all fame and gold, what is that?
I do not like how writers made Angel character, he is to confusing and pisses hell of me, but I like Ats for other reasons then Angel being Magnificent pooh and big boss. and why the hell he was so sure that shanshu was about him, and the way he freats Spike when Spike comes back from dead, I mean they both annoy each other and they are funny but he becomes like a kid in some moments. i also thinks, that if it would for Spike to choose he would say hell with the world and save Fred, cause he cared for her. Spike he cared more for people he kept dear then for whole world, but it does not make him less hero. In comics, Spike is still the one that Buffy wanted to run with when she thought she got knocked up, Spike was at that point on the way being for world not for Buffy, but again he comes to help and support when she needs him or Dawn, he loses his soul but stays in the fight for good. when Angel he is again all evil and kills Giles, sure he brought him back but I am really pissed of that he did not change that much with making all the wrong choices and lying to everybody. Buffy seams just stupid and blind to not see that he is the one she can never really trust, but she did say to him she did not trust him, hm, then it should lead to the point that she cannot love him if she does not trust him, at least it was what she told Spike. I think it is just now, Angel lost his road, something needs to happen to bring him back, and Spike probably will do something stupid to lose trust and respect, thats probably what JW going to do, if they plan bring Bangel together, but I really hope they will do not such a thing, cause, then 70 % of btvs fans would be pissed of. Cause I see it that there is more Spuffy fans then Bangel fans, and thats gives me a hope that they will not want to make us angry)))) I like Angel and Cordy love story they both grown up and friends and support for each other, like Buffy and Spike. this kind of love is more mature and real, and worth fighting for. I honestly do not thinks they will not bring Cordy back if they brought Darla back and now Anya almost. If you look at TVD sorry btvs fans, yeah I do watch tvd crap, sure byvs number one and better, but JW stole some ideas from tvd for sure, cause if you loke it up tvd book was before 1997, to bad for them they did not make series earlier, Joss was first and it makes him favorite, and actors are great on btvs, Spike is cool, hot and funny, Angel grrr and also hot even brooding, when on tvd Damon is fucking hot, but not that funny as Spike.... Spike character was I think stolen from tvd books ,but James played it much better and the lines he plays are better written then the Damon lines. Stefen is a bit of crazy mix of Cullen and Angel, and also brooding, and look at hair all three have same Edward, Angel, Stefan. God could they at least try not to be obvious? In tvd Elena at least loves her bad boy, mean Damon and shows it:-/ Buffy never said to Spike again that she loves him, that sucks, but she was upset when he left her to go on his boat. His line about how he does not want to be her dark place touched me, cause he wants to be the one to lead her into the light and not drop her into shadows like he tried in btvs. 6, but then he was soulless and did not know any better. He never did ask for sex, I do not remember, he told her he knew he was monster and he knew she would probably never love him, but he stayed and tried and she jumped his bones, she used him, confused him, and made something ugly from his feelings for her...Spike gave her strength and make her to believe in herself, when Angel hurt her and made her weak. But Angel and Cordy worked same way as Spike and Buffy. I am not fan of simple romance like Bangel, and please do not kill me for saying it, I know to you it does not look simple, but Angel never had to fight for her love, or for his hero status, he got it just, when Spike had to fight for everything. and eap, creepy Angel and Buffy on stairs with lolly pop and pig tales and he what? Fall in love with her heart? Come on people....angel stalked Buffy no less then Spike did and it was even more eeww then with Spike cause ding dong underaged girl...and creepy evil bit pedophile vampire.... so ok, sorry to Bangel fans but I do have kids myself and it is just eww and totally scary....but I did like Angel better on his own show, he kind of shows the sides of him not so bad not so creepy, I do not like to make a big deal about his humanity and I will remember, it confused me, cause Buffy cheated on Riley and then did not know about it)))) and also Angel human is does not look that hot, I mean Angel eating food? And they are all like married couple with Buffy and ice ? Not hot , not good enough to keep you watching show or read comics... But I like it that in ats 5 Angel shows how mature he can be when Spike loses his hands, that talk they had, I could see how much Spike still did not understand about evil and all this fight, when Angel did see big picture. I also cannot see Spike in some armanni suit and being big boss, making big decisions, but I do see him co e to help Buffy, Dawn, Willow, even Xan, and even Angel or Giles when they need it the most.... i do see him dying again to save all of them and with them the world, do not know what is bigger the love when you lose your own soul by loving or when you get one? This is totally different, but both are epic. Spike as human was sweetheart romantic and geek, Angel was rapist and drunken whore, but he did not have love from his family as William did, he was not grown up as high class society person.after losing his soul and living with it for more that century, Liam also changes, and maybe some day Angel can also be just one person guy, that Angelus will not be that different from Angel, but it still looks to me he has a lot do to get to that point and except his monster get control over him like Spike was able to do. I still wish Buffy and Spike together but not human Spike, if Buffy could be with Angel thats only if they both would be just human, but then it would be just boring guys. Buffy and Spike can be together as they are and not loose their personality . Their hands on flame, they were like twin flames...like their souls were connected at that moment, it was beautiful and magical, and Spike and Buffy sex is not so eeww as Buffy and Angel, do not why but they do not have that efect on me they are creepy together.

All these comments were compelling to me and after reading somethings about Angel, it gives me more clarity of who would be the better lover or who Buffy SHOULD chose. I read a lot of comments about Angel choosing the nobler road because he has a higher calling. So with that said, Angel isn't the one because his duty requires that he can't be the one Buffy needs . Maybe wants but needs is something more critical to me. Spike provides that. These are two different men. One is about duty and the other is about love. Obviously Angel would do anything for Buffy. I wonder if he would die for her; higher calling and all. Hmmmm see we have a problem here. Before Bangel fans jump on me....if you all have been arguing that Angel had a duty to serve than he wouldn't be able to die for Buffy. It goes against the argument of him being a champion of the people. He has to save many not just Buffy and that's fine. Strong love there . But Buffy wasn't the same Buffy in the beginning with Angel when she was just a TEEN than Spuffy season 7 and matured and yea she said she wasn't done baking and all that but I believe there is one main driving force that pushes people in life. Some people are more motivated by power or wealth or duty or love. I totally believe Angel loved Buffy but who he was as a person bad n good pre vamped n post vamped is why he is the type of lover he is. He believes the best love for someone is to love objectively ; more like a marter concept with him. Spike as a whole good or bad pre vamped post vamped was a lover. Spikes main motivation in life was love say whatever about his clinginess to the women in his life but there's nothing wrong with that like he said when he was William the bloody in fool for love, he says he doesn't care about the adventures of crime or mysteries, he cared about poetry.....love. He was at heart a sentimental so to ultimately give Buffy what she NEEDS is soulful Spike when it comes to who she can SEE herself romantically with in the end I think it should be spike because he was a lover ...,always his gift to the world was micro compared to wanting to be the champion of the people but we need people around who want to be the champion for ONE person someone who is truly devoted there's nothing wrong with choosing love over duty hey we all need to be saved from the world but we all also need to be saved from ourselves and that's when you need someone whose duty is to love.... So I believe Angel loved Buffy with all his heart just as spike did but two different men two different motivations....Angel is that champion of the people Spike is the champion for One girl.....Buffy nothing wrong with that :-)

I think Buffy loves both but in different way, Angel was her first love (she was a teenager), and on season 7 Spike was her present (adult love). Who did she love the most? for me this is silly, is like who do you love the most mom or dad?

Is like Willow, I mean she loved so much Oz and he always gonna be special for her, but the relationship was over so she moved on, then she fell in love again with Tara, then Tara died, i think Willow always gonna love her, but again she needs to move on and now she has a relationship with Kennedy, even i don´t like Kennedy´s character i enjoy the fact that Willow is capable to feel again. Why Buffy/Spike/Angel have to be unhappy and with not romantic love the rest of their lives? Buffy is gonna get older and die, eventually Angel/Spike are gonna move on and they´re gonna fall in love again.

Now on Chosen, Buffy clearly chooses Spike over Angel, yes she kiss him in the mouth but in the end she goes to Spike and sleeps with him, and the next night, is the apocalypse, maybe she die tomorrow and what does she do? Spent that last night with Spike (free interpretation, like Joss said maybe they have sex or just cuddle or talk all nigth, maybe they did all of this).

About the cookie speech, she´s saying that she´s not ready for a romantic relationship, for some fans is: she´s saying that she sees her future with Angel, maybe, but the only truth is that future is unknown, maybe never happens, the only thing that we´ve got for sure is present, and like i said Spike was her present.